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Author Topic: 22r Cheap, "Easy," Turbo  (Read 26409 times)
bbeardb
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22r Cheap, "Easy," Turbo
« on: March 11, 2008, 09:56:30 AM »

Hello All,

I was clued into this site after bugging Darin with email and I wanted to post what my plan is here so I don't have to exclusively bother him, and so I can get a double check on my assumptions.  I can turn a wrench, but never tuned or tinkered in this manner.  Replace transmissions and timing chains and stuff, but nothing like this.

I have a 1987 22r 4x4.  I want to put a turbo on it and get 150hp for $1000 or less.  The plan is basically Tacoma four banger power cheap and "easy."  In order to do this, the following is what I'm thinking.  Please let me know if these assumptions are correct or not.
 
  • - Get an EFI intake (done, 22rte complete intake bought for $130 shipped, that includes injectors.)
  • - Get a cheap T3 .42/.48 ebay turbo for $200-300, or look elsewhere (unsure where to find at the moment.)
  • - Either get a cheap turbo intake manifold for $250, OR run a remote/rear mount set up.
         - the rear mount eliminates using an intercooler (which I wasn't going to use anyway) and the intake manifold.
              - one concern is splashing/submersing the turbo with water (it is a 4x4 after all).  STS shows their Tacoma splashing through water without a care on their site
  • - Plumb everything
  • - Use Megasquirt as a stand alone EFI computer (don't mess with trying to convert my truck to Toyota EFI, especailly if it woulnd't really work with the turbo anyway)
  • - Keep the boost at 8 PSI or less
         - This should get me my 150hp and I don't "think" I'll need to do any engine work this way (pistons, etc.)
              - One concern is the head gastek, I'm guessing I might have to replace that, and I'm guessing I could get a fat one to try and reduce my compression from stock some.
  • - I'm guessing the stock 295cc injectors will be plenty for my needs

Does this sound reasonable, or am I crazy?  Also, is there anyway to do this without using premium fuel?

I'm definitely going to need held when it comes to the megasquirt.

Thanks for reading if you make it this far!

B
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mosk
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Re: 22r Cheap, "Easy," Turbo
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2008, 11:16:08 AM »

Hi and welcome. I don't think you're crazy, but I also doubt you can do this the first time out and get it right for $1000 -- even if your goals are "modest".

These are the problem areas I see:

1. This is a normally aspirated motor on a normally aspirated chassis, so you need to install an EFI fuel tank and EFI fuel  and fuel return lines, which I don't see in list (unless this was covered under "plumb everything".)

2. This is a high compression motor with 20 year old cast pistons, which means you have a small margin for error. Because you are running high compression pistons, you won't be able to run much ignition advance, This increases exhaust gas temps (EGTs), and high EGTs eat pistons. This is a potential show stopper.

3. This is a 20+ year old motor. Remember how they always advise sedentary folks to "consult your physician before beginning any exercise program"? Well, the same applies for 20 year old motors. Turbos break stuff. Power = heat, and in addition to making more power, turbos also generate a lot of heat themselves. So you had better take a close look at your cooling system, too. A 3-row radiator is a MUST. Your 20 year old hoses are also going to need replacement.

4. Standalone is great, MS is great, and Darin is a great resource, but there is a learning curve with any aftermarket EFI system. Unless you have experience tuning a standalone EFI, expect that it will take you a while to get it right, and that the "getting it right" process may screw up your motor. See point #2 about the small margin of error.

5. And speaking of tuning, you need to budget some time with a wideband O2 meter. You can either buy onw (http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/) or rent time on a dyno with access to a wideband O2, but this simply HAS to be part of your budget if you are running a standalone.

6. Thicker headgaskets are a no-no on turbo motors, as the in-cylinder pressures are too great, causing them to fail fairly quickly. Also, the 22R has a really lousy head bolt-to-cylinder ratio: ten head bolts for four cylinders, meaning the inner six bolts all do double duty between two cylinders. This causes the head to lift, and this is how headgaskets fail. You will need ARP studs and a good quality headgasket (e.g., Cometic MLS or similar). This is especially true since you will be running static 9:1 compression. The ARP studs run around $110 from Summit; make them a part of your budget.

7. Unless you change pistons, you will be running 9:1 static compression with this setup. You will need to run premium fuel.

Sorry if this comes off as harsh, but the above is based on my personal experience with these motors. I don't think this can be done for $1000, and I am not even sure it can be done for $2000.

My .02 cents. Once again, welcome to the board.

Jeff
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Ugly, but probably worth reading: Jeff's 22R-TE Page
Just sayin': If Ronmar and I both post on the same topic, listen to Ronmar! His answers are typically better and more accurate than mine. Cheesy
dcg9381
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Re: 22r Cheap, "Easy," Turbo
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2008, 11:34:07 AM »




To paraphrase:
You've got a recently built late model 22R motor (taken from a previous email), stock compression of 9.4:1 or so and would like to get a solid 150hp out of it for $1000.

I disagree with Jeff, I think you can do it.. Well, for maybe a few hundred over $1k.

I'd comment though - that you're going to need to run premium fuel and very much limit boost to something like 4-6 psi...

You'll need a stand alone as you're converting from a late model 22R to a 22RE - stand alone is about your real option with a custom turbo.  As you're on a budget, megasquirt is your only option in regard to stand alone.  Jeff is right - there is a substantial learning curve associated with the system - you need to be reasonably computer savvy and patient - and that's if you don't assemble it.   My advice would be to get the thing running as a 22RE first - convert it to fuel injection, tune it and learn the system that way.  If you make a mistake tuning a naturally aspirated motor, you'll have a lot more room for a mistake.

If this is your daily driver, I'd say don't take on this project as it's going to see a lot of garage time.

My formula would be:
1) megasquirt $300-$400
2) turbo manifold $250-$675
3) Basic T3, $250-$550 (the .42/.48 you mentioned is a good choice)
4) Fuel pump ?$$
5) Stock toyota manifold, injectors, distributor, coil, and ignition. $$? 
6) Plumbing for the turbo - silicone, aluminum or steel, and associated oil lines.  ?$$
7) Wideband - $199

Highly recommended would be some ARP studs.
It's easy to eat up $1k budget.
Timing is the hard thing to setup with megasquirt and you'll be building your own harness as you've got a 22R truck.

I don't think you'll get to 8psi on a stock motor... But I think 4-5psi should get you to 150hp and might survive if you don't make any mistakes.

I wouldn't remote mount it, you'll spend more money on plumbing it, and you need an oil pump to return the turbo oil back to the pan.  If that pump fails, it's bad news.  I'm also not convinced that long runs of pipe = intercooler.

I wish you good luck with the project - I'd say to plan to spend $1500, if you spend less then you're good to go - just don't want to see you get stuck or run into debit. 

Note, I'm on the optimistic side of this discussion...   If you can't afford to eat a head gasket (or two) - I'd pass on the project.


295cc injectors will work for 150hp or so, give or take.
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mosk
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Re: 22r Cheap, "Easy," Turbo
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2008, 11:55:03 AM »

Hmmm, didn't realize the motor was recently rebuilt. Still...I'm sticking with my analysis of "it can't be done for this budget". Also, 9.4:1 static compression is damn high for a turbo motor.  But I've been feeling very curmudgeonly lately.  Roll Eyes

Definitely good luck with this if you choose to go forward.

-Jeff
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Ugly, but probably worth reading: Jeff's 22R-TE Page
Just sayin': If Ronmar and I both post on the same topic, listen to Ronmar! His answers are typically better and more accurate than mine. Cheesy
bbeardb
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Re: 22r Cheap, "Easy," Turbo
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2008, 12:45:28 PM »

Ah yes, I forgot the fuel pump (I don't think the tank is necessary, have read of others doing EFI without), and didn't think about the distributor, coil and ignition...  I know this is going to be difficult.  But, I do have all the time I need (other vehicles) and not worried about the money or going broke.  I'm just trying to see if this is achievable.  I go back and forth from thinking it's impossible to "heck yeah, I can do this!"  I talked with some turbo guy just today, and he supercharged his stock Lexus and that had 10+:1 compression.  Granted though, that's not a 22r.  Wait, I think it was a supra motor he put in his Lexus.

I'm sure it will be an up-hill battle.  I have never even heard of wideband before.  I've never messed with EFI.  I found out the "rebuild" was just a hone, re-ring, and deck surface along with a valves ground, replaced, and surfaced.  Another strike.  Helps a bit, but it wasn't a total re-build that's for sure. 

Things that will help: access to a shop and people willing to help to do all the plumbing/piping.  A friend that is an ASE Master Certified Toyota Mechanic that I can hire for cheap if need be.  I found a dyno to use for $80 or something, I'll have to ask about the wideband.  With some help I can figure out the computer stuff and wiring a harness shouldn't be that difficult either with knowledge/direction.

Hmm, it does look iffy...  I still want to try though.  I'll certainly do a whole write up if it works out.

I like the plan of attack of fuel injecting first, then adding the turbo.  Although to be honest, I wanted to do all the wrenching and stuff first (the easy stuff) and then figure out the fuel injection.
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dcg9381
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Re: 22r Cheap, "Easy," Turbo
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2008, 02:23:26 PM »

As far as head designs go, the 22R head stinks.. Especially compared with modern head designs like Lexus (Toyota) and Honda.   Remember, people have 10:1 compression ratio Hondas running 13 psi of boost on fuel/timing management on pump gas.. I can tell you that you won't get close to that with a 22R series head, but I can't give you the scientific reasons why.. Don't know enough about head design.

I think you can get 150hp out of it no problem.
What it'll cost you and how long it will last largely depend on your skill, budget, and probably a little luck.

Rick at FullBoogie says he's got a "stock" 22R series over 175hp and it's lasted quite a while, so I'm a believer.

A wideband is an 02 sensor that's accurate across a wide range of air/fuel ratios.  They're commonly used for tuning and I'd say they're required for tuning a turbo vehicle.  Your standard 02 sensor really can tell you 3 things: rich, stoich (neither rich nor lean), and lean.  It can't tell you the difference between a little bit rich and REALLY rich, which makes a standard 02 not-so-useful for tuning turbo motors.

A dyno is useful, but I'd say it's useful for more "finish" tuning than rough tuning.

I'd get that thing setup to do EFI first - lots to wrench on there, so I hope you're good at circuit diagrams and 12v wiring.  You could leave your stock ignition system alone and drive it fuel only to start with, which is a relatively easy add-on project (same as my first MS project).  You will need to control timing eventually at your compression ratio if you want boost.


And just as a side note of sanity... A 2RZ or 3RZ swap would probably be a better choice long term, I say that to myself as much as I'm saying it to you.
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mosk
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Re: 22r Cheap, "Easy," Turbo
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2008, 02:57:20 PM »


And just as a side note of sanity... A 2RZ or 3RZ swap would probably be a better choice long term, I say that to myself as much as I'm saying it to you.


LOL. FWIW, I've come around to this way of thinking, too, though as the owner of a supercharged 3RZ I would suggest a 5VZE instead.

OP, the advantage of turbocharging a 22R is that you already have the motor, and the turbo parts aren't that hard to find. The disadvantage is that this motor isn't a great turbo motor. Everyone agrees that a stock 22R /22RE is highly reliable, in a boring-but-consistent sort of way. A 22RTE/turbo 22RE makes more power, but it doesn't make enough power until you reach the stupid/crazy level. And all turbo versions of this motor are significantly less reliable than their normally aspirated brethren.

I'm not knocking this as a hobby -- hey, my truck is fun and I'm not a hypocrite -- but you also need to consider how this motor will be used and how far into the woods you will feel comfortable taking it. And I'm telling you straight up, you need to consider reliability just as much as you consider adding power. You can do a lot of things to a turbo 22R to make it go quicker, but the things you do to make it stand up to the power are the things that ultimately count the most.
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Ugly, but probably worth reading: Jeff's 22R-TE Page
Just sayin': If Ronmar and I both post on the same topic, listen to Ronmar! His answers are typically better and more accurate than mine. Cheesy
bbeardb
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Re: 22r Cheap, "Easy," Turbo
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2008, 03:22:48 PM »

You can do a lot of things to a turbo 22R to make it go quicker, but the things you do to make it stand up to the power are the things that ultimately count the most.

Excellent point.  My turbo high is wanning, but the input is really appreciated. 

Really, the thing that scares me the most is the megasquirt stuff.  I'm not too worried about ruining the engine for some reason.  Maybe it's because I don't plan on going all out. 

So if I'm to continue, I need to bolt on my intake, install inline fuel pump, get megasquirt and try to figure that out.  If that goes well, I have to get the ingnitor and distributor and coil (and AFM?) and mess with that.  Once that is figured out, exhaust manifold, turbo, plumbing, and then test.  Sound right?

Now I'm getting gun shy!
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bbeardb
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Re: 22r Cheap, "Easy," Turbo
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2008, 03:48:41 PM »

Or I guess I could do like this kid and turbo it into a carb!

http://www.tremek.com/forum/performance-modifications/31029-22r-toyota-carburetor-turbo-conversion.html

I don't quite understand how, but it must have massive jets dumping fuel at all times.  Efficiency must suck if that's how it was done.
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mosk
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Re: 22r Cheap, "Easy," Turbo
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2008, 04:01:18 PM »

Not sure what you mean by "inline fuel pump", but just to be sure we're all on the same page, these motors use a recirculating EFI system: fuel is picked up by the in-tank fuel pump and pumped through the fuel rail at high pressure. This pressurized fuel circulates back into the fuel tank via a fuel return line. The injectors are basically on/off switches that are controlled by the ECU. They pulse open and closed, and with each pulse fuel is sprayed into the intake tract. Bigger injectors are just bigger solenoids. The fuel pressure regulator controls the static fuel pressure, and there is a reference port for manifold vacuum (or boost, in our case), to vary the fuel pressure accordingly. Vacuum = less fuel pressure proportionate to the amount of vacuum, boost = more fuel pressure proportionate to the amount of boost. So you can't use an inline pump with your existing, low pressure carb tank. Instead, I'd strongly suggest finding a used EFI tank and stock pump from a 22RE and using that. It will bolt right up, and you can easily plumb the two lines you need. Just be sure to use fuel line that is rated for EFI at every point that requires fuel line! Non-EFI hose will quickly blow out when subjected to EFI fuel pressures.

Also, I want to second Darin's suggestion: do the EFI conversion first, on your existing motor. Once you have that working and understand how the MS system works, adding a turbo later is much easier. Otherwise, you are biting off a whole lot of project at once. Carb->EFI conversions with the stock ECU are well documented. Converting to MS is challenging but certainly not impossible, but learning how to tune a standalone EFI on a turbo motor is difficult. This was why I used professional tuners, and why I am not shy about recommending this approach if your budget allows for it. Find someone good and book two hours of their time. Going rate in my area is about $185/hr for this service, but it is money well spent IMO. As I said in my blog, when I had Fodge Engineering tune my truck, Dan Fodge was more effective in his first 20 minutes of tuning than I had been in a month of poking at it in my driveway. This is one of those areas, like surgery, where it doesn't hurt to pay for someone else's experience. You can always tweak their tuning job later if you add stuff, but having a pro set the correct baselines for fuel and ignition is just plain smart, in my opinion. I have tremendous respect for anyone with the skill and cojones to do this themselves, but for me, there was immense peace of mind in having someone who knew what they were doing tune my motor.

Again, my .02 cents,

Jeff

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Ugly, but probably worth reading: Jeff's 22R-TE Page
Just sayin': If Ronmar and I both post on the same topic, listen to Ronmar! His answers are typically better and more accurate than mine. Cheesy
bbeardb
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Re: 22r Cheap, "Easy," Turbo
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2008, 02:29:08 PM »

Really good stuff guys.  A dose of reality is always a good thing.  I've been thinking about it quite a bit and I figure the turbo route on the cheap, just to be cheap, isn't the way to go.  I've been chatting with Ted at engnbldr and he thinks with a new cam, oversized valves, and some exhaust work, I could hit 140hp.  I think that may be a bit optimistic, but it's a heck of a lot cheaper and safer than shooting for my turbo idea. 

Maybe at the last minute I'll decide to put the turbo pistons in there and a metal head gasket.  And I've found a couple Toyota only salvage yards that I can get some of the EFI stuff for cheap around here (tank, ignition...), and I do have the intake and injectors on the way.  Plus, I'm contacting the kid with the carb turbo to see how that is working for him.  I think we're in the same state. 

Whatever I do, I think I need to slow down a bit instead of jumping in headfirst.

Who knows, maybe 200hp for $2000! 

Here's a pic of the truck.  It's just too "cool" in my mind not to do something fun with it.





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dcg9381
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Re: 22r Cheap, "Easy," Turbo
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2008, 03:52:03 PM »

Really good stuff guys.  A dose of reality is always a good thing.  I've been thinking about it quite a bit and I figure the turbo route on the cheap, just to be cheap, isn't the way to go.  I've been chatting with Ted at engnbldr and he thinks with a new cam, oversized valves, and some exhaust work, I could hit 140hp.  I think that may be a bit optimistic, but it's a heck of a lot cheaper and safer than shooting for my turbo idea. 

Maybe at the last minute I'll decide to put the turbo pistons in there and a metal head gasket.  And I've found a couple Toyota only salvage yards that I can get some of the EFI stuff for cheap around here (tank, ignition...), and I do have the intake and injectors on the way.  Plus, I'm contacting the kid with the carb turbo to see how that is working for him.  I think we're in the same state. 

Whatever I do, I think I need to slow down a bit instead of jumping in headfirst.

Who knows, maybe 200hp for $2000!  megreenberg/1987%20Truck/backseat.jpg[/img]


I really like working with Ted - he gives good advice and he's already made his money. I believe he's largely in in because he likes the work.

My guess is that Ted told you you could have a motor with the potential for 140hp..   The dyno run I've seen on his .5mm valve, rebuild, basic cam, didn't come out with much higher peak hp than stock, but it did show good improvement across the entire RPM range with no real down side.

I was thinking the other day - two things:
1) You can use an in-line pump as mentioned.  I think the guys over at pirate typically use some kind of pump from a Ford van, sub $100.  The carb'd tank is unbaffled, but I never had a problem with when I was doing a TBI setup (15psi vs 30-45 for port EFI).
2) If you're near a major city, you could run E85 and get a little more safety margin, maybe slightly decreased cost, and more viability out of a 9.4:1 turbo setup.  Again, I'd recommend tuning naturally aspirated first.  There's a website online that located distributors of E85.  Some major cities have great selection of E85 stations.   Some cities don't.  Note, I'm adding complexity to an already complex project here... :-)


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bbeardb
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Re: 22r Cheap, "Easy," Turbo
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2008, 04:05:56 PM »


I really like working with Ted - he gives good advice and he's already made his money. I believe he's largely in in because he likes the work.

My guess is that Ted told you you could have a motor with the potential for 140hp..   The dyno run I've seen on his .5mm valve, rebuild, basic cam, didn't come out with much higher peak hp than stock, but it did show good improvement across the entire RPM range with no real down side.

I was thinking the other day - two things:
1) You can use an in-line pump as mentioned.  I think the guys over at pirate typically use some kind of pump from a Ford van, sub $100.  The carb'd tank is unbaffled, but I never had a problem with when I was doing a TBI setup (15psi vs 30-45 for port EFI).
2) If you're near a major city, you could run E85 and get a little more safety margin, maybe slightly decreased cost, and more viability out of a 9.4:1 turbo setup.  Again, I'd recommend tuning naturally aspirated first.  There's a website online that located distributors of E85.  Some major cities have great selection of E85 stations.   Some cities don't.  Note, I'm adding complexity to an already complex project here... :-)


Yeah, Ted has my business guaranteed.  He did say with the cam, larger valves, fitting for the valves, and exhaust work, they see 140hp time and time again.  Potential to tune to 150.  Again, it seems a bit high to me. 

As for the E85, I work in Boulder Colorado, so there is E85 all over here, and it's much cheaper than regular, by like a $1 a gallon.

I have considered just buying all the parts, putting together what I can, and just paying someone to make it all work for me (as long as I can watch over their shoulder and learn something.)  Don't know if there is anyone around here though that does stuff like that.  I love projects, but really really hate screwing up something stupid and without anyone to go to.
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Re: 22r Cheap, "Easy," Turbo
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2008, 06:40:41 PM »

Just read thru youre post and saw u lived in Co.
So if u need any help with anything im in the denver metro let me know i can shoot u in the right direction.
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Re: 22r Cheap, "Easy," Turbo
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2008, 07:18:39 PM »

First off I think "stock" 22R injectors are 170cc, second off remote mount turbo setups are stupid.  It seems good advice has floated around though, if you want to do this start off with converting your truck to EFI.  Don't go looking for an ignitor/coil set-up either, if your going to run a MS just get a MSD Blaster coil from summit for $40 bucks and have the computer fire it.  It will produce better spark and performance over a stock coil, stock coil is ok though, I didn't have flame blow-out till about 22~24 PSI, but I also had a MSD 6AL firing the stock coil.  The bad thing is doing things cheap greatly reduces your reliability, I have easy 10K invested just under the hood of my truck, but I drive it everyday, to work.....everywhere, and I'm not easy on the truck at all.  At LEAST once a month I'm taking or making trails in the mountains outside of Vegas most of the time going slow and working the engine hard crawling rocks and such.  The beauty of all of it in the end is getting a 4WD truck sidways in secong gear at only 17 psi, and if someone even in a lighly modified Mustang or Camaro pulls up next to me I just turn the knob on the dash, slam the boost gauge at 30 and hand them their ass at the next stoplight without any worries.  The point of the story....spend your money wise, don't skimp out because it's cheaper.

Later
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1994 Reg. cab short bed 4x4 5-speed, MS I, 255 lph pump, 525cc inj, custom stainless T4 header, locked front and rear, built 22RE.  For Sale
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